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Lesson 9 [Solved by Ruby]

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First topic message reminder :


Lesson 9

Heavy Storm and Dark hole

Hello. Today we will be discussing about the cards known as heavy storm and dark hole. What makes those cards so good? Which one is better? Do you think that any of them should/shouldn't get banned?
Having cards such as zenmaines/stardust/starlight road actually makes those cards less good? Post here what you think about those 2 cards and the way they affect the game.
The person that goes more in-depth with his analyse gets 200 DP.

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To tell you the truth i think these cards are very powerfull you can accually clear the whole field with only these 2 cards when they also have a card to clear the field called final destiny where the cost is to discard 5 cards here with these 2 cards its like discard 2 cards the cards you activated so i guess they are overpowered allthough now days there are loads of special summoning involved so they are not as good as they used to be. Also the card Heavy Storm may be more destructive these days as most duelists use a big backrow of cards do defende themselves and mosters to attack with but in my oppinion dark hole is sometimes a dead draw cause you might have the big field advantage so its good to use dark hole in a deck that has a big use of its spells and trap cards and the use of heavy storm is good when it has its biggest use of monsters for example its best to use heavy storm in a very consistent quasar deck (well mine at least) cause there i have 30 monsters 9 spells that dont stay on the field and 1 trap so heavy storm is very good in a deck like that BUT dark hole could be a HUGE dead draw since u use loads of monsters to special summon with, dark hole can be very good in a deck that resolves good in having monsters in the grave like a chaos deck to summon BLS in an easy way while your opp has no monsters. But now days these cards also have a BIG dissadvantage with cards like zenmaines, starlight and more but especially those 2 cards imagine the opponent having 2 monsters on the field and 2 fd cards 1 of the 2 fd cards is starlight so the person with starlight has a big advantage in either the opponent activating dark hole or heavy storm and he is very ready for them since they are also in nearly every deck then the guy plays heavy storm lets say and then the opp plays starlight not only the heavy storm is negated but stardust a monster with 2500 attack points apears to the field and again if he uses dark hole the only monster destroyed is stardust he will not return but still Over Powering the known Over Powered cards... so do i think heavy and dark hole should be banned my answer is no in my oppinion what should be banned are cards like zenmaines and starlight but i am getting off the point i think if zenmaines and starlight and cards as such are banned then maybe dark hole should be banned but since the cards starlight and zenmaines arent banned i think its best neither dark hole or heavy storm to be banned cause now its all about who gets what cards first the player who gets the cards first get an advantage while the other player will keep starlight fd for a long time and maybe for the remander of the duel

I hope my answer is good enogh maybe i also said something twice cause my mother was talking to me while i was writing this and if u have any questions that u didnt understand about this PM me on either DA or DN :D

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Well, both destroy cards on the field, but heavy storm is much better. Dark hole should be banned because it destroys all cards on the field, but with heavy storm, it destroys all the spell and trap cards. So heavy storm is much much better because your opponent might have mirror force. You use heavy storm and mirror force is gone. Any other traps to negate will be destroyed and you will be able to attack the monster. But with dark hole, you will have an awesome monster but you will lose because your opponent has a powerful card. You have awesome cards on your field but your opponent has strong cards. You want to destroy those cards but you don't want to destroy your cards. That is why heavy storm is more better and dark hole isn't that good and should be banned.

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Stepping in for Designer Drugs.

I read your inputs in this thread and the best answer was Ruby's with no doubt. I suggest all of you to read it, if you did, do it again because it simply injects you knowledge from someone with good experience in the game :D

[kod]Ruby congratulations you get 200 DP and thanks for such a nice input.[/kod]

Ruby wrote:
Allright, I'm sure pro people are familiar with the number %15 a.k.a what are my chances of getting screwed if I set two cards first turn and my opponent plays Heavy Storm. %15 is the chance of openong with a single, specific card from your 40 carded deck in your opnening hand of 6. Therefore, in every 6-7 duels you will open with a Heavy Storm in hand and this is also correct for your opponent. Why am I saying this? Because it makes you think.


To elborate that statement, let's rewind back a few formats, where heavy was banned and we were left with Trunade. While Trunade essentially accomplishes the same mission when you are aiming for a game-winning swing, it is essentially a "-1" and no matter what anyone says, it all comes down to capitalizing on that single +1 and snowballing on it in this game. If Jason-Grepher taught me anything, it's to always gain card advantage in terms of economy. Now, despite what people foolishly claim, Heavy Storm is ALWAYS at least Plus 1, unless chained to. Nobody in their right minds play heavy while having a backrow or their opponent doesn't have atleat two. The part where it is different from HFD is merely a balance restriction to overcome abusing it by having a strong backrow of your own and making the game essentially a trap hole fight (nowadays warning war (: ) Under normal circumstances, one could argue easy plus ones/power without gameplay is unhealthy. Obviously Pot of Greed and Delinquent Duo are just wicked . Yet, in the absence of Heavy we saw that Thunder King + 5 Set go "meta" actually worked. But should it?


In OCG, they used to play Blackwings with 14+ Traps, usually one for ones. Again, they capitalized on pluses via battle/kalut-gale and Black Whirlwind, and then went to simplification. Back in 2004, where Reaper was at 3, how was the game? Reaper+MST+Smashing generates +1, and your opponent has to go another 1 for 1 to eliminate Reaper. What does this cause? Simplification. Obviously +1's are good, but they won't make a huge difference when you have 6 cards and your opponent has 5. However, when you have a card and your opponent has none, now it makes the difference. 2008 Perfect Circles did this, TeleDaD's did this. Capitalize on pluses, simplfy and win. Now Heavy Storm is obviously a plus one, but what it accomplishes justifies this : It removes players from mindlessly setting their 1for1's with comfort and force them to make a choice.

A common example would have been BoM, MST and BTH at hand. Do you go BTH? Or do you need BoM to stop an enemy combo? What if you could've hit enemy Dustshot with your MST? It all comes down to making choices and executing them correctly.1 could take the risk and set two or all three, yet is it worth to take the %15 chance? Heavy enforces decision making in terms of how one actually decides what to do woth their trap/spell defense line-up, and it is beneficial for the sake of the game other than people mindlessly sacking double warning and easly winning (:


Overall, Heavy is essential for the game, especially at the absence of Cold Wave and Trunade. Konami's rare smaet choices in a few formats, letting 3 MST and 1 Heavy in. Trap line-up is hard decision making processes in terms of deck-building and it should also be a hard process to set them during a duel, instead of being all five set go.


Coming to Dark Hole, However similiar they may look in terms of ramifications and how they operate, they are significantly more different than each other. The mai difference is in the core of the game :

Monster summoning is harder than setting traps/spells.

Despite the fact that this is perfectly normal, almost all monsters possess an inner ability score card gains > destruction through battle. When you manage to overrun an opposing monster you simply gain a plus one. In addition this leads to two possible situations, especially in the early game

A) Your opponent's field is empty, hence his ability to make plays that can overrun your own monster or make card gains is severly hampered. In such case he must either stall or sacrifice a huge chunk of lifepoints. A pro duelist always puts cards before lifepoints, yet ypu only have so many of them. As you approach late-game and it all comes down to topdeck battles, the earlier sacrifices to catch up with card advantage may get costly for whoever does them. Therefore, the opponent must stall, wasting yet another card and letting you expand your field presence to push on more pluses and capitalize on that. In this case, your outcome is highly profitable.

B) Your opponent uses a 1for1 to get rid off your monster and establishes his own field presence. Now, keep in mind that you were already at +1 and what did you force your opponent to do? Simplfy. The winning Reaper Theory. On your turn you can execute 1 or 2 1for1's and voila, you have simplified the game severely whilst maintaining the single plus.

Obviously I may have went on a tangent here, but this connects strongly to Dark Hole. Above, you can see how a single Battle Phase evolve into a player snowballing and expanding his field presence, pursuiting even more plusses and eventually the game. Now, under normal cases this could be a desirable mechanic for a game, but not for Yugioh. As I said earlier, the Trap Lineup plays a huge role in our game nowadays and once one can get the lead, it is very hard to re-establish your field presence or get the combo going. 2 Warnings, 2 BTH, 2 Torrentials and a Judgment. Not mentioning Potential Rai-Oh's and many more possibilities. As you can see the slope of the mountain is so high in Yugioh, that the tiniest snowflake can grow into a huge snowball in just a few turns...


Without a Dark Hole. Dark Hole essentially makes the players restore the equilibrium of the game state and postpone possible snowballing in order to generate more thought provoked gameplay. In addition to stopping one player from capitalizing on opening hands so easly, Dark Hole also accomplishes the same mission as Heavy Storm : It gives a sense of maintaining and managing resources to players. Back in the Day, it sure would've been tempting to go 3 Lumina and a Wulf or 3 Zombie master for example, yet attempting such comboes right now is highly risky. players have a chance to open with a field wiper is 39% (2 torrent and dark hole) That means almost half of the time, get ready to see a field wiper in Turn 3-4 at least (they don't have to be played but they will most certainly be available)

Anyhow, since I've stated how both cards have a crucial role in terms of the health and the sake of the gameplay, moving on to Sdudt and stuff.


Removal negation isn't new, it's been around for a long while all in forms of 1 for 1's . Main examples include Prime Material Dragon and Mbaas. Obviously packing a situational one for one isn't your best deal most of the time, so the "newer" destruction negaters are sort of... Better.

Starlight Road is a pure plus one that is capable of becoming a 1 for 2 when taking the Summoned Sdust's effect into acount. Of course it's condition is hard to catch, but I say 5 possible commonly played cards are juust enough (2 torrent, dark hole, heavy and mirror force) It makes a great side card, especially if the cards you were protecting can also obtain plusses or exchanges on their own.

Does this mean the value/power of Dark Hole or Heavy Storm in a duel decreases? No. Starlight Road an it's companions solely generate counterplay, and although situational at best, such cards can easly lead to mind games between the opposing sides, which ultimately is what wins the duel.


Ruby



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