Lesson 9 [Solved by Ruby]

Hello. Today we will be discussing about the cards known as heavy storm and dark hole. What makes those cards so good? Which one is better? Do you think that any of them should/shouldn't get banned?
Having cards such as zenmaines/stardust/starlight road actually makes those cards less good? Post here what you think about those 2 cards and the way they affect the game.
The person that goes more in-depth with his analyse gets 200 DP.

well dark hole and heavy storm are 2 very powerful cards. what makes dark hole so good id because if your oppent has a 5 monster zones and u have hole in hand or on the field face down u can flip it up and destroy them all. while storm if the field is wide open and all he has is 5 face down spell and traps play storm and destory them all.

In my option they are both the same because they are staples and can be helpful in both ways.

i think nether should go away because at one they both help clear fields and destroy certain things that u cant get over with monsters that have low attack.

well almost all decks carry stardust and zenmaines starlight road is a card most people run but havent really used because of how people would rather have 1 monster and set at most 2 but they are still as useful because if u can bait them out and use them u can use one of the 2 and still go for game but with zenmaines it makes the 2 cards look obsolete because its just such a tank it can live up to 3 destruction and its a pain to get ride of so i say to stardust and starlight they would still be good but compared to zenmaines its just terrible.

The reason they impact the game as staples because they are almost in every deck is because they can clear the field for the win or going to do alot of damage to set up for game for example

u have storm in hand he has 5 face downs u use storm he gets rid of all face downs then go for quasar for end game that is how good it is to impact the game hole if your oppent has game and u need to get out quasar u can use hole to clear all monsters and summon it then for direct attack. If u have both at same time in hand then its pretty much u have the advantage because u can clear field when u need to so that is why storm and dark hole are so good

I am sorry but your post is terrible :l

i like puzzles better then explainations i am terrible at them i would rather record a duel puzzle then explain something

Heavy Storm and Dark Hole, at times very annoying, at times very helpful. These two cards and the timing behind them can change the way a duel flows in its entity.

Dark hole is good for clearing the field monster-wise, yet there are some cards that can actually benefit from it. I learned that very thing in a duel today, i had Dark Hole in my hand, the opponant had a Nordic Aiesar Synch out (can't recall the name at the moment) I played dark hole, it wiped his field clean along with mine, I had 100 lp left and RDA on the field (yes yes ik blame me for not reading the card eff xD) but here it just so happened as long as he has a Nordic monster in his grave he could banish it and re-summon the Synch, and boy was it a whopper (3500 Attack). So thats just one disadvantage of Dark Hole. Another instance could be where your opponant has a Inter-Deminsional Matter Transporter and saves his monster in time where as you on the other hand......not so lucky.

Heavy Storm is a bit less risky, it's more beneficial in my opinion then Dark hole because it's easy to revive monsters, but it may take time to get essential spell and trap cards back. True it may be costly to yourself at some point, but I say the potential benefits of the timing outweigh the potential risk. Of course one also must be watchful for cards like Stardust/Starlight etc. as well as playing it a turn too soon. A decent scenario would be as follows (I will present one good and one bad);

Bad Heavy Scenario: You play heavy when your opponant has his back zone full, unbekowest to you this actually helps him; A. Possibility of Bait Cards (as I refer to them by), Cards used to bait out MST/Heavy Storm/Dust Tornado. B. regardless of bait or not, unless your positive you can finish him in the turn you played heavy your at the mercy of what other spells and traps he may be hiding in his hand.

Good Heavy Scenario: You chose rock and your opponant chose paper, he opts to go first. He plays 3 cards in his backzone, uses double summon, sets two monsters, then calls it a turn. Your hand consists of Summoner Monk, Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, Stardust Phantom, and Mirror Force. You decide to go ahead with your best judgement and play Heavy Storm. Timing is dead on, his backzone is wiped clean (Mirror Force & Two Solemn Warnings) then feel free to synch etc.

I think thats roughly a good analysis, but if my point isn't made clear I threw in the scenarios for the more detailed card just in case. Thanks for taking the time to read all that. I do believe in going to as much depth as possible in my explenations.

First of all, i have bad English so i will just use bullet point statements:

History:

1. Heavy Storm:

- Used to be a game changing card that might cost a duel because it was the only guarantee for OTk while your opponent had heavy background(beside Cold wave and Giant Trunade), and occasionally u could even get a 1 for 3+ card advantage. So heavy storm was a Must for most of the competitive decks

2. Dark Hole:

- Dark hole was slightly inferior than heavy storm in general play (except whole S/t deck - burn!!! Exodia,etc) because the monsters are visible and you know exactly what you're dealing with. However spells and traps are face down and you wouldnt know what to expect. Nonetheless, it was a key card to turn the game after you survived a big push from your opponent. So it is a flip the table card for most of the decks.

Today:

1. Heavy Storm

- Holders of heavy storm no longer possible to easily make a 1 for 3 -5 card+ because they will be expecting something like Starlight, The huge revolution is over, etc... Or even free chain cards (compulsory, safezone,etc...) and baits. Occasionally heavy storm can be a dead draw when vsing all monsters meta deck (Koaki - StarBird is the common example)

- Meta is the evolution of modern yugioh, and heavy storm only would be abit more securing before a all-out OTK push, you may ask "if its a OTK, then wouldnt heavy storm be the key card to secure the combo?" - No, why? because people have counters from their hand!! (Gorz, Trag, Veiler, Maxx C,...) if you focus on your own hand combo, and convinced yourself heavy storm their 2 face down cards and you win, well i'm sorry to say you're still in the ancient time when monsters can't jump from their hand!!, where your hands do nothing during your opponent's turn.

- Nevertheless, Heavy Storm is still a preference main deck card, but there are people who side it out after a game!

2.

Dark Hole:

- Konami is pushing the pace of yugioh, if you see a field of different frame color monsters then it should be game unless hand counters (veiler, maxx,etc...) and along with this acceleration, people is starting to only use spell speed 2 or higher spells and traps to keep it up. Dark hole is certainly a good card however, if you veiler or maxx C, then they would stop their combo in general leaving them only 1 -2 weak monsters which you can easily run over, and certainly you would use dark hole on a Solo Tour Guide, or a Junk synchron. So if you have a tight card spot deck focus on offensive, without a doubt you would drop dark hole for your heavy, another copy of maxx or veiler

Ban or No Ban?

No for both:

- Sometimes, dark hole/ heavy is used to bait their Starlight/Solemn or even - Quasar/SSD's once per turn effect. then they combo then push over, and today, there are way too many ways to counter Heavy/ Dark Hole. common 3 are starlight, stardust, zenmaines, there are also

Simple 1 bait Scenario:

- opponent has Laggia with its materials, you have a Junk synchron, Doppel and Dark Hole in your hand with effect veiler in your grave

Simple 2- bait scenario:

- your opponent sangan searched veiler, and has a laggia with its materials, you have junk synchron, doppel and dark hole in your hand with Glow in your grave (with its effect)

Nobody seems to get it right :/
The effects are really simple, just focus a bit and you can answer it right.

Last edited by DesignerDrugs on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

ok first lets go over dark hole



Destroy all monsters on the field.

effect is simple ofc you just destroy all monsters on the field even your own

dark hole is ment to be a turn the tables card aka turn the game into your favor which is what makes it good plus the fact it can clear the field of a swarming deck or even to use as bait

example
opponet has 3-5 monsters on the field and will win next game you draw dark hole you then give our self a chance to win the duel or at least prolong it for a bit
example 2
opponet has stardust on field you have dark hole and monster rebron in hand you activate dark hole and opponet activates stardust effect you then play reborn
example 3
you opponet has zenmaines on field you activate dark hole and end turn opponet is forced to detatch another material from zenmaines or destroy a card on his field

so no this card is not less usefull against stardust or zenmaines but against starlight road it depends on how many monsters are on the field for that but most of the time starlgiht road will kill it

should it be banned? no

now onto heavy storm



Destroy all Spell and Trap Cards on the field.

effect is simple ofc destroy all spell and traps on the field face-up or face-down and even your own

heavy storm is in all essance there for the same reason as giant trunade was to clear opponets backrow so you can pull of a OTK or to pull off a powerfull combo but unlike trunade which just bounces them back heavy destroy the spell and traps which means you can't abuse cards such as call of the haunted as you could with trunade

example one
opponet has full backrow and you can pull off trident OTK so first you activate heavy storm clearing backrow then got for trident OTK
example 2
opponet has full backrow and you have a single infenrity mirage in hand and nothing else and a set heavystorm activate the set heavy then summon mirage to pull off infernity combo
example 3
look to dark hole versus stardust example as its the same concept

heavy is the same concept as dark hole against stardust but heavy is useless again zenmaines and heavy is also same concept as darkhole versus starlight road

should it be banned? no

hope this is what you where looking for if not then i have no idea what so ever what you want for this lesson :/

Nope, that's not good.

Dark hole destroys all monsters on the field, while Heavy Storm destroys all spell or traps on the field.

Heavy Storm has been banned in a couple of formats. If Heavy Storm is unbanned, you will have to be careful about setting spells/traps. This card can lead to OTK'S. (Yay, no mirror force)
Dark Hole has been limited for a couple of formats. Now, you cannot extend your field without a card that can protect your monsters, like Solemn Judgment. If you summoned 5 monsters and wasted your entire hand, the Dark Hole will most likely end the duel.

If I had to choose one thing to ban, I would choose Heavy Storm. Now with 3 Mystical Space Typhoons, there are alot of backrow hate. Heavy Storm was once banned because players would have more freedom to set their spells and traps. With Heavy Storm, it can wipe out a whole strategy with only 1 card, generating advantage.

Although it would be no surprise for me if Heavy Storm would be banned and Cold Wave/Giant trunade will be unbanned next format.

Well, 'till now the above best is the best, but I am pretty sure that somebody here can post a better one, keep trying.

heavy storm is gud cos it distroy all ur enimys traps n spills

dark houle is gud cos it distroy all ur enimys monstrs

I think that should win^

Dark Hole & Heavy Storm

Dark Hole:
-It is a nuke for specifically monsters. It is a decent card in terms of offense, but you only get one shot, you waste Dark Hole on something stupid, your opponent has the best opportunity to counter-attack on their next turn and so on because there is a lesser chance of being nuked by that one card again, seeing as how it's limited. However, it is a nuke. While cards such as Starlight Road and Stardust Dragon reduce the usability of the card, it doesn't make it useless, seeing as how Stardust can only negate once per turn, it just forces the offensive player to have to play slightly more strategic if he/she wants to turn the tide of the duel.
In terms of Defensive end of Dark Hole, it is something to be wary of, as any card in your opponent's hand could hold that one card, but it is only one card. planning can ultimately avoid being caught off-guard, and having all your monsters wiped out, leaving you wide open for an attack. Cards like Stardust Dragon and Starlight Road better the odds of survival from that devastating card, but it doesn't mean your monsters are safe. Why? Because if your opponent used Dark Hole while Stardust is on the field, it usually means your opponent has planned it out, or is bluffing/making a desperate move.
In any case, a combination of strategy and planning is nescessary to survive the deadly onslaught of Dark Hole.

Bannibility:
It is very possible Dark Hole could be banned, as it is a cost-free nuke, but it is only ONE nuke, and it is just as possible for Konami to continue on letting Dark Hole nuke away.

Heavy Storm:
-It is Dark Hole's polar opposite, whereas Dark Hole blows up all monsters on the field, Heavy Storm nukes Spells and Traps only, and similar to Dark Hole, you only have ONE SHOT.
In terms of offense, it is a VERY powerful card, where Monsters may be a minor or major blockway for an attack, Spells and Traps can truly make much more of an impact on how your turn commences, whether it is a Shrink Spell card or a Mirror Force Trap. In an offensive mindset, you must breathe an air of caution towards face-downs, whether they are bluff cards or not, as you do not have the Millenium Eye like Pegasus to check. :3
A similar degree of caution for the defensive mindset for Dark Hole is nescessary to surviving a nuke from Heavy Storm, but a different form of it. If you fear being Heavy Stormed, it is unwise to set all of your most powerful spells/traps all in one sitting, as that is what your opponent will want you to do.
Most opponents nuke as quickly as possible, assuming you've already put down your most powerful cards, even if you were holding back one-two extras in case all hell broke loose. Cards like Stardust Dragon and Starlight Road are helpful defensive cards if you're trying to hold back your opponent's nuking strategies, as Stardust Dragon can negate, despite only once, and being relatively easy to plan around, and Starlight Road allows for a surprise negation, leaving your opponent in a rut in terms of strategy, as they still are unaware of what you have face-down, and that forces them to either play out their turn and get hit by the face-downs you placed or just end their turn out of paranoia.

Bannibility:
As Dark Hole's polar opposite, Heavy Storm has a decent chance of being banned, and even more so a chance of being banned due to the fact that Spells and Traps have a powerful impact on gameplay, and sometimes a nuking of said Spells and Traps could leave an opponent in an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Personal Comments:
I personally don't wish to see these cards being banned, as they are a creative spin on gameplay and require more planning to use/play around. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if they are banned.

Ok.. I'll explain them shortly
Most of you were like "with heavy you can destroy 5 cards from your opponent's st zone" Now really? That's how heavy storm affects the game, your opponent will have to play around it all the duel, and will set max 2 at time, which means you can do some pretty good plays not being afraid of double solemns, torrential, bth and stuff. Besides, most of times heavy is at least +1 and sometimes you can just play it to go for otk's or just take control of the duel. About dark hole, well, dark hole is something that your opponent should keep in mind and don't summon a lot of monsters in the field. That's how those cards affect the game, they give u at least +1 most of the times or they force solemn judgment.
I personally prefer heavy storm since it destroys spells/traps which can't be recycled, which can be a surprise and stop your plays but also gives you more pluses then hole, since most of times with dark hole you will be destroying a monster which was used by your opponent to get a +1 (stratos, gadgets) or monsters that already might have dealed you a lot of damage and slowed down your plays (rai-oh, high atk monsters etc)
I really wish that heavy won't get banned, it's healthy for the game.

-shrugs-

whatever works.

Well, what I think is that, Heavy Storm and dark hole, what they have in common is that they don't require anything, you can just throw them out there. Unlike other cards like starlight road and such require something like a sacrifice or a specific card being activated.

meanwhile heavy storm and dark hole you can just play don't need anything in exchange, I could have rainbow noes out with 4500 attack and have it wiped out like nothing by dark hole. that's why it's banned or restricted in today's rules.

that's what I think.

missing anything? let me know.

for me dark hole is a double edged sword and always has been. having to lose your own monsters to take out some impossible thing to beat that your opponent may have makes it well worth it. it can put you at an advantage with a "fresh field" and since it would still be your turn during activation hopefully you have something that will put you ahead. as far as zenmaines, stardust, starlight there is really no point to playing dark hole.

its the same scenario with heavy storm, its a double edged sword. making a great sacrifice to possibly gain an advantage. the difference here is spells and traps on the field can make players nervous during battle phases which leads to the strategy of just playing face-downs for no reason or gain in mind, but to scare the opponent.

Banning? Really? people always want cards banned because they were used in a cheap way and that person lost. so they are complaining that someone should be able to use that card if (some random scenario). i tell people to stop complaining just because i want to fill up my deck with 'counter' cards. such as man eater bug, nobleman eater bug, needle worm, deck destruction etc. limiting either of these cards or banning them is a chicken way to do things.
(scenario)
if i have nothing on the field but you have three monters over 3000 atk. and i have nothing but dark hole, i'm clearly going to play it. or you have all spells and traps and no monsters. i only have one monster, no spells and/or traps. heavy storm would help greatly there.

To sum it up it all depends on the situation in which the card is used. Card Destruction should also fall in the same category as these two cards. if you have a good or bad strategy going alot of cards are made to mess that up. so two specific ones cant be singled out. try comparing the nordic gods to stardust and starlight. yes a little off topic but the same argument can be made.

Finally, both of these cards are what i call "tide-changers". they alone can swing the duel in your favor. i personally feel that their effects are neutral, when there are hundred of other cards that make you lose your entire field and make you take damage for each card. dark hole and heavy storm don't seem so bad now, do they?

And @the guy above me
yes your missing a few things. you are able to play both dark hole and heavy storm without ''payment'' but the payment is actually that in the event you did have spells/traps/monsters on the field that formulate into your strategy that could be more costly in the long run. a situation where the end does not justify the means. example: i gave up my insect queen and my ultimate moth level 5 to destroy this guys 2 blue-eyes with dark hole just to summon insect knight with 1900 atk. insect queen and my moth were both cards i needed later on but because of the situation i had to make sacrifices.

Last edited by Pein009 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Pein009 wrote:

for me dark hole is a double edged sword and always has been. having to lose your own monsters to take out some impossible thing to beat that your opponent may have makes it well worth it. it can put you at an advantage with a "fresh field" and since it would still be your turn during activation hopefully you have something that will put you ahead. as far as zenmaines, stardust, starlight there is really no point to playing dark hole.

its the same scenario with heavy storm, its a double edged sword. making a great sacrifice to possibly gain an advantage. the difference here is spells and traps on the field can make players nervous during battle phases which leads to the strategy of just playing face-downs for no reason or gain in mind but to scare the opponent.

Banning? Really? people always want cards banned because they were used in a cheap way and that person lost. so they are complaining that someone should be able to use that card if (some random scenario). i tell people to stop complaining just because i want to fill up my deck with 'counter' cards. such as man eater bug, nobleman eater bug, needle worm, deck destruction etc. limiting either of these cards or banning them is a chicken way to do things.
(scenario)
if i have nothing on the field but you have three monters over 3000 atk. and i have nothing but dark hole, i'm clearly going to play it. or you have all spells and traps and no monsters. i only have one monster, no spells and/or traps. heavy storm would help greatly there.

To sum it up it all depends on the situation in which the card is used. Card Destruction should also fall in the same category as these two cards. if you have a good or bad strategy going alot of cards are made to mess that up. so two specific ones cant be singled out. try comparing the nordic gods to stardust and starlight. yes a little off topic but the same argument can be made.

Finally, both of these cards are what i call "tide-changers". they alone can swing the duel in your favor. i personally feel that their effects are neutral, when there are hundred of other cards that make you lose your entire field and make you take damage for each card. dark hole and heavy storm don't seem so bad now, do they?

And @the guy above me
yes your missing a few things. you are able to play both dark hole and heavy storm without ''payment'' but the payment is actually that in the event you did have spells/traps/monsters on the field that formulate into your strategy that could be more costly in the long run. a situation where the end does not justify the means. example: i gave up my insect queen and my ultimate moth level 5 to destroy this guys 2 blue-eyes with dark hole just to summon insect knight with 1900 atk. insect queen and my moth were both cards i needed later on but because of the situation i had to make sacrifices.

in that case pray you have call of the haunted, monster reborn or really and kind of resurrection card, or just another good monster, ready to play.

Asurastorm wrote:

in that case pray you have call of the haunted, monster reborn or really and kind of resurrection card, or just another good monster, ready to play.

exactly its all about case situations where a card can actually benefit a player or not. also both dark hole and heavy storm can be used to combo, there are monsters who have effects when they leave the field not to mention some of the monsters that do damage to LP after being sent from the field or the ones that destroy all cards on the field. the advantage of +1 may not be as good as a card that can do 1000 pts of damage once its off the field.

Last edited by Pein009 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

Allright, I'm sure pro people are familiar with the number %15 a.k.a what are my chances of getting screwed if I set two cards first turn and my opponent plays Heavy Storm. %15 is the chance of openong with a single, specific card from your 40 carded deck in your opnening hand of 6. Therefore, in every 6-7 duels you will open with a Heavy Storm in hand and this is also correct for your opponent. Why am I saying this? Because it makes you think.


  To elborate that statement, let's rewind back a few formats, where heavy was banned and we were left with Trunade. While Trunade essentially accomplishes the same mission when you are aiming for a game-winning swing, it is essentially a "-1" and no matter what anyone says, it all comes down to capitalizing on that single +1 and snowballing on it in this game. If Jason-Grepher taught me anything, it's to always gain card advantage in terms of economy. Now, despite what people foolishly claim, Heavy Storm is ALWAYS at least Plus 1, unless chained to. Nobody in their right minds play heavy while having a backrow or their opponent doesn't have atleat two. The part where it is different from HFD is merely a balance restriction to overcome abusing it by having a strong backrow of your own and making the game essentially a trap hole fight (nowadays warning war (: ) Under normal circumstances, one could argue easy plus ones/power without gameplay is unhealthy. Obviously Pot of Greed and Delinquent Duo are just wicked . Yet, in the absence of Heavy we saw that Thunder King + 5 Set go "meta" actually worked. But should it?


  In OCG, they used to play Blackwings with 14+ Traps, usually one for ones. Again, they  capitalized on pluses via battle/kalut-gale and Black Whirlwind, and then went to simplification. Back in 2004, where Reaper was at 3, how was the game? Reaper+MST+Smashing generates +1, and your opponent has to go another 1 for 1 to eliminate Reaper. What does this cause? Simplification. Obviously +1's are good, but they won't make a huge difference when you have 6 cards and your opponent has 5. However, when you have a card and your opponent has none, now it makes the difference. 2008 Perfect Circles did this, TeleDaD's did this. Capitalize on pluses, simplfy and win. Now Heavy Storm is obviously a plus one, but what it accomplishes justifies this : It removes players from mindlessly setting their 1for1's with comfort and force them to make a choice.

 A common example would have been BoM, MST and BTH at hand. Do you go BTH? Or do you need BoM to stop an enemy combo? What if you could've hit enemy Dustshot with your MST? It all comes down to making choices and executing them correctly.1 could take the risk and set two or all three, yet is it worth to take the %15 chance?  Heavy enforces decision making in terms of how one actually decides what to do woth their trap/spell defense line-up, and it is beneficial for the sake of the game other than people mindlessly sacking double warning and easly winning (:


   Overall, Heavy is essential for the game, especially at the absence of Cold Wave and Trunade. Konami's rare smaet choices in a few formats, letting 3 MST and 1 Heavy in. Trap line-up is hard decision making processes in terms of deck-building and it should also be a hard process to set them during a duel, instead of being all five set go.


  Coming to Dark Hole, However similiar they may look in terms of ramifications and how they operate, they are significantly more different than each other. The mai difference is in the core of the game :

Monster summoning is harder than setting traps/spells. 

Despite the fact that this is perfectly normal,  almost all monsters possess an inner ability score card gains > destruction through battle. When you manage to overrun an opposing monster you simply gain a plus one. In addition this leads to two possible situations, especially in the early game 

A) Your opponent's field is empty, hence his ability to make plays that can overrun your own monster or make card gains is severly hampered. In such case he must either stall or sacrifice a huge chunk of lifepoints. A pro duelist always puts cards before lifepoints, yet ypu only have so many of them. As you approach late-game and it all comes down to topdeck battles, the earlier sacrifices to catch up with card advantage may get costly for whoever does them. Therefore, the opponent must stall, wasting yet another card and letting you expand your field presence to push on more pluses and capitalize on that. In this case, your outcome is highly profitable.

B) Your opponent uses a 1for1 to get rid off your monster and establishes his own field presence. Now, keep in mind that you were already at +1 and what did you force your opponent to do? Simplfy. The winning Reaper Theory. On your turn you can execute 1 or 2 1for1's and voila, you have simplified the game severely whilst maintaining the single plus.

 Obviously I may have went on a tangent here, but this connects strongly to Dark Hole. Above, you can see how a single Battle Phase evolve into a player snowballing and expanding his field presence, pursuiting even more plusses and eventually the game. Now, under normal cases this could be a desirable mechanic for a game, but not for Yugioh. As I said earlier, the Trap Lineup plays a huge role in our game nowadays and once one can get the lead, it is very hard to re-establish your field presence or get the combo going. 2 Warnings, 2 BTH, 2 Torrentials and a Judgment. Not mentioning Potential Rai-Oh's and many more possibilities. As you can see the slope of the mountain is so high in Yugioh, that the tiniest snowflake can grow into a huge snowball in just a few turns...


Without a Dark Hole. Dark Hole essentially makes the players restore the equilibrium of the game state and postpone possible snowballing in order to generate more thought provoked gameplay. In addition to stopping one player from capitalizing on opening hands so easly, Dark Hole also accomplishes the same mission as Heavy Storm : It gives a sense of maintaining and managing resources to players. Back in the Day, it sure would've been tempting to go 3 Lumina and a Wulf or 3 Zombie master for example, yet attempting such comboes right now is highly risky. players have a chance to open with a field wiper is 39% (2 torrent and dark hole) That means almost half of the time, get ready to see a field wiper in Turn 3-4 at least (they don't have to be played but they will most certainly be available)
 
  Anyhow, since I've stated how both cards have a crucial role in terms of the health and the sake of the gameplay, moving on to Sdudt and stuff.


   Removal negation isn't new, it's been around for a long while all in forms of 1 for 1's . Main examples include Prime Material Dragon and Mbaas. Obviously packing a situational one for one isn't your best deal most of the time, so the "newer" destruction negaters are sort of... Better.

Starlight Road is a pure plus one that is capable of becoming a 1 for 2  when taking the Summoned Sdust's effect into acount. Of course it's condition is hard to catch, but I say 5 possible commonly played cards are juust enough (2 torrent, dark hole, heavy and mirror force) It makes a great side card, especially if the cards you were protecting can also obtain plusses or exchanges on their own. 

  Does this mean the value/power of Dark Hole or Heavy Storm in a duel decreases? No.  Starlight Road an it's companions solely generate counterplay, and although situational at best, such cards can easly lead to mind games between the opposing sides, which ultimately is what wins the duel.


Ruby

Personally, I use them both as an emergency sacrifice when I do. (This isn't an answer, more a comment on the lesson.) Like, If I have a spell or trap set that can't be readily applied to the situation I'm in, I may use heavy to clear the opponent's assets of screwing me over with say, solemn warning or torrential tribute. Especially if they're a heavy spell or trap user, Like a uria centric duelist. I certainly agree that heavy should not and probably will not be banned. It's VERY healthy for gameplay and can really save you, turn the tables, or even accidentally put yourself at a disadvantage with the cards that get destroyed. Black hole on the other hand, is a nuke. It's terrible. The worst thing in the WORLD is getting my five-headed, blue eyes and utopia on the field, just to have some trollface with a knack for raising my blood pressure flip over a no cost table flip, and leave me defenceless to get hit by a winged kuriboh or something. It's terrible, horribly unfair, and I think at the least it SHOULD and hopefully WILL BE banned and replace with maybe a card with a similar effect that asks for a few cards discarded. There are very few backlash effects to heavy in comparison to hole though. Many more monsters have graveyard and "sent to graveyard by card effect" effects on em comparative to spells and traps... and on the subject of synchro monsters? Ugh, I can hardly stand them. They're so... NEW... I'm still getting used to them. Thankfully, I've duelled a rare few synchro users, and i certainly don't use any myself. So I wouldn't know anything about stardust. But zenmaines? Oh yes, I could see him just NOPE-ing a black hole like a boss, and i'd love to watch it go down. then, just at a glance i can see how a stardust user COULD use starlight road to a HUGE advantage against black hole as well. Making it and stardust dragon a guardian to the other monsters on the field. Or even spells as it were because road doesnt specify monsters or spell/traps. It would be a brilliant counter to either card and almost balances black hole. Which i still hate alot.

Everyone is giving such huge answers, going to make mine look tiny, but anyways, I think there both good cards, Dark Hole you can clear there field of attack, but they may have cards in the back to counter it or there cards may bring out a stronger card, Heavy Storm you can clear out there back field then go after the monsters, but run the risk of there monsters effect, I think Heavy Storm is better, since you clear out any cards they may try to use to counter them. Dark Hole can make cards like Zenmaines a pretty effective card, detach a card, getting rid of all there monsters, use his effect to destroy any possible cards that come out OR a back field card. Neither should be banned, maybe limited but not banned, because there are so many cards out there that can counter there effects (Dark Bribe, Stardust Dragon, etc.). I think they really impact the game because there those cards that can either give you the upper hand in a turn, or, depending on the deck, put the opponent in a better position.

Dark Hole and Heavy storm are both good cards.
Heavy Storm : This card is good just because you can get more then one Backrow with one card and not having to use more the one MST or Dust Tornado or having to waste good XYZ effects on card that could potential screw you over by stopping The card before it happens , the downside is cards Like Starlight that negate the destruction and get a strong monster , or (not thats it played anymore ) Cards Like spell calling.
Dark Hole is a card that stalls the game (again in my own opinion ) Its there and pretty much is used to clear the way of course Monsters can always be brought back.
But Clearing the way too do Damage is alot better then getting rid of back rows , because Back rows have chances to be bluff at least when your using dark hole you know what monster are face-up and any set monster are just bonus' at this point
Either one shouldnt get banned because It keeps the game going not only does the game last longer both players can get cards like these without the same name .
(Ex. Change Of Hearts is banned yet they added a Card TGI swap or something that does the exact same thing )

Im new here but i have heard of these cards.

1. Heavy Storm- it can destroy all spell and trap cards on the field including the opponents cards.

2.Dark Hole- Destroys all monsters in the field in DEF position and ATK position all monsters are sent to the graveyard.

I really really wish Dark Hole wasnt banned because if your opponent has a monster with 2500+ it would destroy the monster instantly.

Can DesignerDrugs check this thread and evaluate the answers?

PokeAngel123 wrote:

I really really wish Dark Hole wasnt banned because if your opponent has a monster with 2500+ it would destroy the monster instantly.

now then it might just be the way i read it but are you implying that dark hole is banned?

mimgrim wrote:

PokeAngel123 wrote:

I really really wish Dark Hole wasnt banned because if your opponent has a monster with 2500+ it would destroy the monster instantly.

now then it might just be the way i read it but are you implying that dark hole is banned?

and you tell that i am crazy LOL better think of something else then

Stay on topic.

Harbinger wrote:

Stay on topic.

Ohhhhhh Raining down the Hammer of authority (:!

-Stays on Topic- :D

In my personal opinion, Id say that in Todays format neither of those cards are as incredibly "God-Like" as they used to be. If I had to give a nod to one over the other I would go with Dark Hole being better. I say this simply because with Mystical Space Typhoon at 3, Storm doesnt really need to be played. Especially since most people just set one back row as it is and if they do set more than one its usually because the second card set is something like Starlight Road and you end up fueling their cause with your Heavy Storm. In todays format, there is alot of swarm action going on with monsters on the field. Its that reason why I say that neither of these cards are as good as they used to be. With so many ignition effect monsters dropping on the field, its way better to take out cards like dark hole and heavy storm and replace them with cards such as solemn warning and fiendish chain just to name a few. However as I said before If I had to pick one over the other it would have to be dark hole since if you top deck into it you can at least possibly get rid of some if not all (zenmaines etc) of the swarm that your opp has dropped on you by mid-game. I dont think that either of these cards need to be banned, at least not in todays format. Thus is my opinion!