Lesson 20

Last edited by quincymccoy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:05 am; edited 2 times in total

We had a little pause with Lessons but now we are coming back with em, so you better get active ppl!

I see a lot of views on this lesson but no one dares to give an answer, so how about you win 300 DP if you get it right? Think about it.

I've never heard of the card "Eclipse Dragon", what is it?

Dupe frog -
EFF : When its sent from the field to the Graveyard, you can add 1 frog
monster from your deck or graveyard to your hand, except dupe frog
itself..

Yes it can miss timing, if its used for a tribute summon, cause the wast
thing that happened was the summoning of the tributed monster.. Its eff
can only be used if it was destroyed by battle or card eff, except if
the card eff is to send this card to the grave and then do something
else, then it will be missing timing again.. Also missing the timing
only applies to optional effect that are activated " When...you can "
something happens - and dupe frog is a card like that.

Torrential tribute -
When a monster i summon ( Normal/special/xys/sy, all except set ) you can destroy all monsters on both players field..

It can miss time, but only with certain eff.. Like if some
spell/monster effect is to summon one monster and then make something
else, the last thing that happened was the secondary eff of the card, so
Torrentiral tribute can't be activated..

Eclipse Dragon/Wyvern ( Coudn't find dragon, and haven't heard for
eclipse monsters before, so my explanation will be short.. ) - If its
send to the graveyard ( doesn't matter how ) banishi 1 level 7 or higher
- light or dragon type monster from your deck.

It cant miss timing the " If " in its eff says it all, its not optional to do it, you just HAVE TO, no matter card eff an etc..


Not really shure about the last part but maybe this is right : The
effect of Ido the supreme magical force - After it is destroyed by card
eff you can summon it in the next turn standy phase from you graveyard
and destroy all other monsters you control, so the last thing that
happened is destroying of the monster and you miss timing, right ? No !!
The both effect happened at the same time, so you don't miss the moment
after the monster summon..

Amy Cool wrote:

We had a little pause with Lessons but now we are coming back with em, so you better get active ppl!

I see a lot of views on this lesson but no one dares to give an answer, so how about you win 300 DP if you get it right? Think about it.

I can easily answer this but don't feel like typing out my answer v_v

btw eclipse dragon doesn't exist... its eclipse wyvern. get yo stuff right

Okay yeah, i failed on the eclipse thingee, fixed.

And Paco, um, a better explaination of missing the timing is needed, yours is kinda confusing. And you missed the main way to miss timing with one of the cards.

And for the last part, i am looking for the opposite. Something that should not miss timing, but it cannot activate.

Alright, here my take.

Dupe Frog

It has two Continuous effects, so let's focus on its Trigger effect.

"When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, you can add 1 "Frog" monster except "Dupe Frog" or "Frog the Jam" from your Deck or Graveyard to your hand"

Wording is important in determining card effects. What we have here is an optional Trigger effect, meaning you have the option on whether or not to activate Dupe Frog's effect once the conditions are met. Optional Trigger effects CAN miss the timing, as they can't activate in the middle of a Chain. Dupe Frog can't activate his effect if he's Tribute Summoned or used as a Synchro Summon material, as the last thing that will happen is the summoning of a monster. He also won't activate his effect if a card like Torrential Tribute or Raigeki Break is activated at Chain Link 2 or higher, since another card effect had already been activated before it, and with Torrential Tribute or Raigeki Break resolving first, Dupe Frog will not be able to search for another Frog monster since the Chain hasn't finished resolving.

Torrential Tribute

"Activate only when a monster is Summoned. Destroy all monsters on the field."

Torrential Tribute can be activated anytime a monster is Summoned, even by card effects like Call of the Haunted, Monster Reborn, Monster Slots, etc. However, the last thing that must happen in order to be activated is the Summon itself. If an effect hasn't finished resolving when the monster is Summoned, Torrential Tribute can't be activated.

Like Battle Fader (it's even listed on the Wiki). Battle Fader Special Summons itself when an opponent's monster declares a direct attack. Torrential Tribute can't activate when Battle Fader activates in the hand, or when it resolves since the last thing to happen is Battle Fader ending the Battle Phase. Nope. Not even in the middle of a monster's own effect can Torrential Tribute be activated.

To summarize, Torrential Tribute can miss the timing, but not very often. With it being a Trap Card, one can choose when to activate it.

Eclipse Wyvern

"If this card is sent to the Graveyard: Banish 1 Level 7 or higher LIGHT or DARK Dragon-Type monster from your Deck. If this card in the Graveyard is banished: You can add the monster banished by this effect to your hand."

As I said before, wording in a card effect is important when trying to determine what kind of card effect it really is. Card effects starting with "If" never miss the timing, while the ones starting "When" do. It's kinda difficult for me explain the difference between the two, but that's the rule.

However, not all "If" effects are mandatory. Like Eclipse Wyvern's second effect. That effect is optional, as it says that you CAN add the monster banished by its effect, should Eclipse Wyvern itself be Banished from the Graveyard. However, it doesn't miss the timing, it is just optional to activate it. However, its first effect is a different story. It doesn't matter how it is sent to the Graveyard, the owner MUST Banish a LIGHT or DARK Dragon monster from his/her Deck.

One Last Thing

quincy's OP was kinda hard to understand (at least I thought so) but I'm thankful for his second post, which cleared things up. It's difficult to explain this as well, as it is often that card effects, not game mechanics, prevent a monster from resolving it's effect properly. I'm guessing that's why many people have been reading the topic, but hardly answering. Even I am lost on how this can happen often.

Sadly, I can't provide an answer for this. I thought about it so much, and I can only come up with card effects that can prevent the activation of other effects (too easy, actually). But game mechanics are different. Been here for over an hour meditating on the last question, and nothing ._.

Okay, since people seem to be having issues with the last part... a hint.
I was referring to how Eclipse Wyvern interacts with DarkFlare Dragon.

So yeah, your explanation on the rest was pretty good, just finish off the last part.

Ok this is my first class so don't hate me if I screw this up

The eff of Dupe frog is : This card's name is treated as "Des Frog" while it is face-up on the field. Your opponent cannot select another monster as an attack target. When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, you can add 1 "Frog" monster except "Dupe Frog" or "Frog the Jam" from your Deck or Graveyard to your hand.

Torrential Tribute eff is Activate only when a monster is Summoned. Destroy all monsters on the field.

Eclipse Wyvern eff is If this card is sent to the Graveyard: Banish 1 Level 7 or higher LIGHT or DARK Dragon-Type monster from your Deck. If this card in the Graveyard is banished: You can add the monster banished by this effect to your hand.

My guess is the timing is the combination of the card effects, but what I would do is set Eclipse Wyvern then I would set Torrential Tribute, once my opponent has summon a powerful monster on the field I would use Torrential Tribute to destroy all monsters on the field. If my opponent uses a card that special summons it back on the Main Phrase two. Once It's my turn again I would summon Dupe Frog so my opponent cannot declare an attack for it would give me a bit more time to stratagise my next move. So basicaly the ones who would miss time is dupe frog because of Torrential tribute triggers it's eff. But the eclipse dragon can also IF you can trigger it's eff and if you have a card such as D.D.R. Different Dimension Reincarnation, you can special summon that monster you banished from your deck.
Hope I did that right

First, let's define the definition of Misstiming.

Wikia wrote:

Sometimes an optional effect can only be activated "when" a condition happens. In this case, you are only allowed to activate the effect when the activation condition being met was the last thing to happen in the game. If something else happened after the activation condition was met, then you have missed the timing, and cannot activate the optional effect.

Notice that, missing the timing is a game-mechaninc that applies to a monster with trigger-effect written by "When...you can..."-format, so if their text is written with "If...You can..." or "After...You can..." you can save your time debating whether it'll missing the timing or not, because they won't. Mandatory trigger-effect will not missing the timing either.

now let's explain more how a condition can happens, but it can't be interrupted until another events finished.

1. The trigger is met during a Summoning Procedure.
   if we divide a Summoning Procedure into 4 sequential step, we will have:
   
   
   
   1. Sending the 'Cost-like' monster to the graveyard
      
   2. Place the Monster face-up on the field
      
   3. Determine whether its summon is going to be negated
      
   4. Either the summon is negated or not, player will be allowed to responds to this events with any appropriate trigger-effect, or spell-speed-2 or higher.
      
   
   During this 4 step, no effect is allowed to be activated until the 4th part has finished, except for card that could negate summon, it may be used to open a chain in the 3rd-step. And because of this reason, if you tribute Dupe Frog for any kind of 'Built-In Summon' or a Tribute Summon, your Dupe Frog will missing the timing to activates its effect because its trigger is met during the 1st-Step, but you can't activate anything until the 4th-step.
   
   
2. The trigger is met because the monster is used as a cost.
   looking at the rulebook, you will see that a spell-speed-1 may not be chained to anything, except when multiple trigger-effect is activated at the same time. This statement propose that even though the cost is paid at the activation of an effect, trigger-effect may NOT be activated in a chain with the effect that caused it. You must wait until this entire chain has finished resolving before you can activate another trigger-effect,now again, let's split this procedure into some sequential-step.
   
   
   
   1. Activates a card, pay the cost, then select a target and anything written before ";" in the PST text.
      
   2. See if your opponent will responds to that activation, if he does, continue to built the chain until both player agrees to resolve it.
      
   3. Resolve all those effect starting from the effect placed at the highest number of chainlink.
      
   
   as seen here, if the trigger is met during the 1st-step, a trigger-effect may not be activated until all the chain has finished resolving, and due to this reason if you use Dupe Frog for a cost, its effect will missing the timing again.
   
   
   
3. The trigger is met during a resolving chainlink.
   When you resolve an effect, it's starting from the highest chainlink, to the lowest chainlink. Which means; unless the trigger is met at the lowest-chainlink resolving, that trigger-effect will missing the timing. However that doesn't mean it is safe to say as long as the trigger is met at chainlink-1: your trigger-effect will not misstiming because sometimes an effect also do a sequential works; Namely "Ryko, the Lightsworn Hunter". He destroys a monster THEN mill 3 card to the graveyard. Because of this if Ryko destroy a Dupe Frog, its effect will missing the timing again. Also, I say the "Lowest-Chainlink resolving" instead of Chainlink-1 because there are times when Chainlink-1 doesn't even resolve, so the chain finished after chainlink-2 resolves a significant example would be When Geartown's activation is negated by Solemn Judgment or Magic Jammer even though geartown is destroyed
   at chainlink-2 he will NOT misstiming because chainlink-1 doesn't resolve.

because missing the timing only applies to a trigger-effect written by "When...You can.." trigger-effect, those cards that doesn't misstiming would activate when the appropriate time for trigger-effect may be activated again as explained above.

Some Comparison:
Ex1:

1. Dupe Frog is used for tribute summon, his effect will be missing the timing.
2. Eclipse Wyvern is used for tribute summon, his effect will be activated after the monster is sucessfully summoned or have its summon negated.

Ex2:

1. Dupe Frog is used for the activation cost of Enemy Controller, his effect will be missing the timing.
2. Eclipse Wyvern is used for the activation cost of Enemy Controller, his effect will be activated after the chainlink involving Enemy Controller finished resolving.

Ex3:

1. Eclipse Wyvern is already on the field, and then turn-player summon Dimensional Alchemist and use his priority to activate Alchemist's effect, his opponent then responds with Torrential Tribute as chainlink-2.
#because Torrential Tribute will destroys both wyvern and alchemist at chainlink-2, Alchemist will missing the timing, while wyvern's effect will activate after Dimensional Alchemist's effect banished the card at the top-deck.

2. Dimensional Alchemist already on the field activated his effect, the opponent pass the priority to activate a spell-speed-2++, Alchemist's controller's then also activates Call of the Haunted as chainlink-2 to summon Elemental HERO Stratos.
#Because stratos is summoned at chainlink-2, he will misstiming to activate his effect, and so does Torrential Tribute once spell-speed-2 or higher can be activated, it's already past the response window for a monster being summoned, instead this is a response window for a card being banished (alchemist's effect).

A misconception some duelist had about Missing the Timing against SEGOC.
When multiple trigger-effect triggered at the same time, they won't cause each other to Missing the Timing, instead it is what the rulebook said "Spell-Speed-1, may not be chained to anything except when Multiple Trigger-Effect is activated at the same-time" in the event this is happening, the effect will be activated following this casta.
1. Mandatory Turn-Player.
2. Mandatory non-Turn-Player.
3. Optional Turn-Player.
4. Optional non-Turn-Player.

Ex:
1. Flamvell Firedog destroys Mystic Tomato by battle.
#Their effect both triggered when Mystic Tomato is destroyed by battle and sent to graveyard, however instead of making each other missing the timing, their effect will activates following the SEGOC casta.
2. Torrential Tribute is played at chainlink-1 destroying Dupe Frog, while you have 2 Interplanetarypurplythorny Dragon.
# Dupe Frog will not missing the timing, and so does "I...horny Dragon", however, you will be allowed to only activates one "I...horny dragon" because the general rule for an optional-effect that summons themselves from hand states so (with the exception of Infernity with 1800 atk).

per-request.
When Eclipse Wyvern is discarded by Darkflare Dragon's effect, and then Darkflare Dragon banished the same Eclipse Dragon, Eclipse dragon doesn't missing the timing to activate his effect, however being optional, he may not activates his adding card to hand effect because the condition to do so hasn't been fulfilled.

in fact, in OCG, it doesn't even matter whether Eclipse Wyvern has banished a monster or not when his 2nd trigger-effect activates, as long as Eclipse Wyvern is banished before he himself banished a card from deck, his effect to add card to hand won't resolve properly. This ruling also applied when Silent Psychic Wizard's 1st effect is chained by Torrential Tribute, he may not summon the monster he banished.

Last edited by HyawehHoshikawa on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:25 am; edited 2 times in total

@ loner, you are supposed to describe how they can miss if at all, not just copy/paste their effects.

@ Hyaweh, The last thing is as i said before:

Something that should not miss timing, but it cannot activate.

The rest of your article is pretty good, although i did not see a meantion of how Torrential can/cannot miss timing.

Dupe Frog can miss the timing. Its effect is optional, so if it is sent to the Graveyard in such a way that something else happens immediately afterward, such as for a cost, Dupe Frog's effect cannot be activated.

Torrential Tribute can miss the timing. Activating a Set Trap Card is optional, so if a summon was not the most recent thing to happen, Torrential Tribute cannot be activated. It should be noted that Torrential Tribute can be chained as long as the chain started right after a monster was successfully summoned. For example, if the turn player successfully Normal Summons Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress and immediately activates its effect to destroy a Spell or Trap Card, the opponent can chain their Set Torrential Tribute.

Neither of Eclipse Wyvern's effects can miss the timing. The effect to banish a monster is mandatory (I think that's the right term for it), so it activates no matter what. The effect to add a monster to the hand says "if" not "when" so it can be activated even if something else happens immediately after Eclipse Wyvern is banished. Eclipse Wyvern's effect is instead activated at the next possible time (after the current chain resolves, if there is a current chain).

I think this is what you were talking about, but I'm not sure. Eclipse Dragon is sent to the Graveyard as a cost to activate Darkflare Dragon's effect, and then banished by Darkflare Dragon's effect. Eclipse Dragon's effect to banish a monster activates first because it is mandatory and was triggered first. The owner of Eclipse Dragon cannot chain Eclipse Dragon's effect to add a monster to the hand because the effect to banish a monster has not yet resolved, so there is no applicable monster to add to the hand. Eclipse Wyvern's effect to banish a monster resolves, a monster is banished, and the chain ends.

Okay, he is closest so far, just the dupe frog part is a little lacking and can be untrue in certain circumstances...

I redid my answer for Dupe Frog. I may have made some stupid mistakes because its a bit late where I am as I write this. Sorry if it's too long.

Dupe Frog's effect changing its name and effect preventing the opponent from attacking monsters are both Continuous effects, so missing the timing is irrelevant to them.

However, Dupe Frog's effect to add a monster to the hand is a Trigger effect. The Trigger effect says "you can," so it is optional. It also says "when" rather than "if," so it can only be activated immediately after it is triggered.

If Dupe Frog is sent from the field to the Graveyard as a cost for a card effect, that card effect is added to the current chain or starts a chain, and when the chain resolves, Dupe Frog's effect cannot be activated because Dupe Frog being sent from the field to the Graveyard was no longer the most recent thing to happen. Dupe Frog's effect has missed the timing.

A similar thing happens if Dupe Frog is used as a Tribute for a Tribute Summon, or is sent to the Graveyard for a Summoning Condition. If the summon is successful, the most recent thing to happen is that summon, not Dupe Frog being sent from the field to the Graveyard, so Dupe Frog's effect cannot be activated. If a card effect is activated to negate the summon, that card effect starts a chain, and whether or not the summon-negation card resolves and negates the summon, the most recent event was the resolution of the chain, not the sending of Dupe Frog from the field to the Graveyard, so the effect of Dupe Frog cannot be activated. Dupe Frog's effect has missed the timing.

If Dupe Frog is sent from the field to the Graveyard by a card effect, Dupe Frog's effect can be activated as long as the sending of Dupe Frog from the field to the Graveyard was the last thing to happen in the chain. For example, if the turn player activates Smashing Ground and it resolves and destroys the opponent's Dupe Frog and sends it to the Graveyard, the owner of Dupe Frog can activate its effect. Dupe Frog's effect has not missed the timing.

However, if Dupe Frog is sent from the field to the Graveyard by a card effect but Dupe Frog being sent from the field to the Graveyard was not the last thing to happen in the chain, Dupe Frog's effect cannot be activated. For example, the turn player activates Mystical Space Typhoon as Chain Link 1 and the opponent chains Raigeki Break as Chain Link 2, discarding one card and targeting the turn player's Dupe Frog. Raigeki Break resolves first destroying Dupe Frog and sending it to the Graveyard. Then, Mystical Space Typhoon resolves and destroys Raigeki Break. The last thing to happen in the chain was the destruction of Raigeki Break, not the destruction of Dupe Frog, so Dupe Frog's effect cannot be activated. Dupe Frog's effect has missed the timing.

The same thing happens if Chain Link 1 sent Dupe Frog from the field to the Graveyard, but that is not the last thing it does. For example, the turn player activates Dark World Lightning targeting the opponent's face-down Dupe Frog. Dark World Lightning resolves, destroying Dupe Frog and sending it to the Graveyard. Then, the turn player discards Broww, Huntsman of Dark World for the second part of Dark World Lightning's effect. The mandatory effect of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World activates as Chain Link 1. The effect of Dupe Frog cannot be chained, because the discarding of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World, not the destruction of Dupe Frog, was the last thing to happen. The effect of Dupe Frog has missed the timing.

Okay yeah, thats good. :D I just needed the IF/WHEN optional part lolz :D

Any Forum Mod can u please lock this lesson and give isetrh his reward plz?

Sure. Finally.